The least successful game I've run was probably Acid Nights, a Mage game about a young group living in Buffalo, NY. The game ran for about 25 sessions all told, broken in the middle by a 6-week holiday overseas.
The game never really managed to launch into anything much, which at the time seemed utterly bizarre, because all kinds of exciting things were happening in the game world at large. There were a number of things which any PC could have latched onto, from the Vampiric power struggle, to the presence in the city of a completely mad Obrimos who saw himself as God's tool for punishing the wicked. The PCs interacted with these events: they were forced to by the exigencies of their lives. But they never really took the leap into full involvement.
It was always a puzzlement to me, because the reputation and calibre of the group was very high. I won't lie: I have had better groups, but this one was certainly capable of a lot more drama than they actually had. It wasn't until running session 4 of my current game Dirty London, that I realized what had been going on.
The players all designed almost ordinary every-day characters who happened to be mages. They didn't create mages in the midst of having to also deal with their regular lives. The analogy here would be an x-men style super-hero game where the characters are periodically persecuted by people, but are otherwise happy to live out their ordinary lives. Xavier's X-men aren't differentiated from the mass of humanity solely by their powers, but by their willingness, nay, need, to use those powers on the wider stage.
The obvious point to make at this stage is that this is the opposite "problem" to your standard D&D fantasy quest. My experience with an awful lot of gaming is that characters deal with extra-normal stuff at the expense of having a normal life: I played my halfling psychopath Petal for nearly a full year of weekly adventures without one scene unrelated to destroying the tendrils of the Ooze god... a fun filled year, but not one I think on much.
So I theorize that there are basically two story urges that compete for time in most games. The Domestic, and the Adventure. Looking at Acid Nights in this light, it's more apparent that one of the major flaws was my disinterest in the domestic, compared to the players.
I have in previous times, thought of this as a character v. story conflict, but the revelation I had the other night is that in fact, what I had thought of as "character" on many previous occasions was in real terms just as much a story, just about something I hadn't expected to see. It's like picking up Jodi Picoult when you expected to pick up Stephen King: naturally you're confused at the end as to where the supernatural element was. Both have a story, one is just domestic in scale.
Thinking about this as a story focus, but a different kind of story, fills in a lot of blanks for me. It's allowed me to fill in some blanks in previous games: what worked and why. The prime example was Dale's WFRP game, which had a reasonably healthy dose of both kinds of story. There were little character scenes, relationships unrelated to adventuring, and a sense that the characters had more to them than simple adventuring automatons.
The game which it mostly helps explain though was Lace and Steel; a game I seem to still post about obsessively some 3 years on! My discussions with others have me very squarely painted on the "story" side of the character v. story divide; to which I've always responded: But what about Lace and Steel? A game without much of a story, but with great character moments. The insight is that all the ball planning and dinner outings, were stories, just not the kind I'd been used to.
Is there more we can extract from this?
The last thought along these lines which occurs is how you could divide up these kinds of stories. How can you recognize which is which? The best guideline I've got is that some stories, largely adventures, are most clearly about the character altering the world; other stories are about the world altering the characters.
I like this because it puts the emphasis on the outcomes, rather than the process. Often the process can be a bit deceptive. The best example I've been able to come up with is Back to the Future. At the end of the first movie, we think that the point has been to change the world: Marty's 1980s is different at the end than the beginning. But by the end of movie 3, all the important matters are returned to their original state, but the personality of Marty has undergone a change: he can walk away from being called a chicken. I think perhaps that's why the BTF trilogy stands up so well to poking at its gigantic plot holes: because the story we really care about doesn't have any.
This tidies, to my own satisfaction, my difficulties in a couple of recent convention games that have been very enjoyable, but squirmed away from my complete understanding. Principally Death on the Streets and Shelter Me. DotS is very much an adventure in overall construction, but I constructed the character hooks and details with an eye to having the characters' exposed and experience change. When writing it, it all seemed to mesh, but I see now that while the gross mechanisms of plot were all sufficient, I was pushing this way then that at the two kinds of outcome I discuss. Conversely, Shelter Me was intensively focused on character, with an unfortunate ending focused on defeating an external enemy as an expression of inner growth... which in the conception above is are orthogonal things.
I am presently writing the climactic end for my Noirish Dirty London: the "truth" revealed, the uncertainties resolved, fates determined. The game has vacillated between being about the mystery and being about the characters in a way that had quite eluded my exact understanding, but hopefully now I can see more clearly how to wrap things up satisfactorily.
June 2 2009, 04:20:29 UTC 2 years ago
June 2 2009, 04:47:46 UTC 2 years ago
Mostly with DH I'm struggling to get excited by all the investigation... I realize it's a key part of the game, I just hadn't realized how little it would excite me. There have been a lot of times recently where the game's slowed down because of information not provided on the basis of a die roll going awry; and whenever we hit a rough patch in the investigation, it's damned hard for me to gear up mentally to finding another route to the info.
Don't get me wrong: investigation was absolutely part of the game I signed up for. The game is delivering its sell.
June 2 2009, 05:49:07 UTC 2 years ago
It's tough. I mean - if I just say "screw the rolls, if you ask the questions I'll give you the info", doesn't that defeat the point of having the skills? If Solomon can get the same result from trying to search for information as Mithras (just by asking the right question), is that really fair?
It's a real shame. I read the current adventure and thought it was awesome. The first adventure was very much "events happen and PC's react". This adventure gave you avenues to investigate. Perhaps I didn't make those avenues as obvious as I should. It's tough to adjust for the knowing factor - something seems obvious to me because I've read the adventure. Thus I'm conscious of needing to highlight a pertinent fact, but don't want to highlight it in bright neon to say "look here, here's the path to follow, right along these railroad tracks".
I'm not sure what to do - I don't know if anyone is actually getting what they want out of the game at the moment, and I don't really know how to turn it around.
June 3 2009, 00:44:43 UTC 2 years ago
Looking at it the other way: what's the point of bothering with all this NPC interaction if a bad die roll can wash it all away? Doesn't that obviate the role-playing aspect of the enterprise?
The answer here isn't really about whether to give the information or not, but about ensuring that whether the PC succeeds or fails, the story continues to move forward.
There's also an onus on the players to match their performances to their characters' apparent capabilities. Look at how Conan and Mallika play their characters - blunt, almost devoid of social graces, fixated on their specialist activities. They aren't playing the characters this way because that's all they can do! I try to play Mithras as more of a wheeler-dealer face-man, because that's the skill-set he has. As a result of the different approaches to NPCs that Conan and I have taken, matching our characters' capabilities, Solomon will definitely be less successful than Mithras at inquiries without resorting to dice at all.
This adventure gave you avenues to investigate.
We picked a relatively difficult route: the undercover infiltration. This hamstrings a lot of the more blatant investigations we could be making, and when our tech priest "breaks character" it is enormously harmful (full credit to Mallika for playing her character to the hilt, against the best interests of the group :) ).
I picked that investigative tack for 2 reasons
1. It fitted my character's skill set and back-story
2. I feel like we're severely under-resourced in comparison to a proper investigative unit.
Just imagine us in comparison to an FBI investigative team. The FBI team can plant bugs, have people tailed, issue search warrants and request phone and banking records. If necessary they can pull people off the streets for questioning. In comparison we had a party-fund at the start of this adventure of 50 Thrones, and no powers whatsoever.
Again... this is what I expected: to all intents and purposes we're freelance vigilantes who get forgiven after executing the guilty. But it does mean a lot of avenues that have occured to me are off-limits.
I'm not sure what to do - I don't know if anyone is actually getting what they want out of the game at the moment, and I don't really know how to turn it around.
As I've said elsewhere, my problems at present are mostly nothing to do with the game at all. I think there's enough potential to stick it out for another couple of adventures before getting too worried.
Have you read Dogs in the Vineyard? I'd recommend taking a look at it, as it's the same kind of structure to Dark Heresy - a small group of inquisitors travelling the land with minimal actual power or backup. It gives a lot of good advice on how to setup moral conflicts and stories without really needing a hugely investigative base.
June 2 2009, 04:22:51 UTC 2 years ago
In epic adventure games like Exalted and D&D, you need to focus on ordinary everyday drama. In games about "ordinary" people like most WoD, you need a plot that is an epic adventure.
June 2 2009, 04:34:08 UTC 2 years ago
June 2 2009, 07:12:10 UTC 2 years ago
June 3 2009, 05:09:20 UTC 2 years ago
June 2 2009, 06:30:13 UTC 2 years ago
You can still have dramtic plotlines (e.g. stop the serial killer, help the blood-hunted vampire escape the city) and generally this is the level of story I prefer because the stakes are at a level that is easier to relate to as a player (it is easier to imagine the death of a friend than the destrucion of the universe). There is also a more real fear of failure as the GM doesn't have to end the game if you screw up.
June 2 2009, 07:10:05 UTC 2 years ago
June 2 2009, 07:13:51 UTC 2 years ago
June 3 2009, 05:10:20 UTC 2 years ago
What are the circumstances where someone wouldn't want to have the combo you desire?
June 3 2009, 09:00:17 UTC 2 years ago
Really, I have seen way too many people who like just one flavour and don't need the combo to make it a general rule.
June 2 2009, 07:13:23 UTC 2 years ago
June 2 2009, 07:06:51 UTC 2 years ago
This bit I get, and like: "some stories, largely adventures, are most clearly about the character altering the world; other stories are about the world altering the characters."
When I sit down to play, I pretty much always bring character change to the table; it's one of my key play goals. I want my character to change as a result of what is happening, so I look for ways the in-game events can be significant to the character I'm playing. (e.g. in the Invisible College, every single session I'm asking myself "what will shift Parity's direction this time?" - not explicitly, but retrospectively it's clear that's what is structuring my approach to play)
But a lot of games do nothing to support this kind of change; you can bring it if you're into it, especially if the group is into it, but the game doesn't care. D&D of course is exactly this; no-one needs to learn anything in D&D except the command words for their magic items.
Maybe I'll understand the larger point better if I can tempt you to, say, elaborate on your comments about Shelter Me?
June 3 2009, 05:30:15 UTC 2 years ago
The bit you do get is just a restatement of this.. or at least, it was intended to be. The simplest formulation here is probably even simpler than I've stated:
Is the story about the world? Is the story about the character?
When I sit down to play, I pretty much always bring character change to the table; it's one of my key play goals.
I like to think this is true of me also; but perhaps others could better speak to that.
The issue I've had in some recent games is that people anticipate spending 5-10 sessions figuring out who the character is before they feel comfortable moving into stories where those characters might be challenged to change.
Reading Ivan and Steve's comments on characterization in the Long Term thread I posted earlier lead me to believe that character change in those games is incidental: the focus is about stories aimed at the "domestic" level i.e. about the character, but not resulting in character change.
Which is why my formulation as shown in the post is possibly flawed? Or am I just chasing my own tail now?
D&D of course is exactly this; no-one needs to learn anything in D&D except the command words for their magic items.
OR is D&D the epitome of the character-focused game? Because the players I've found the most frustrating, difficult even downright recalcitrant, are those focused on character advancement. The players who care most about developing the character's skills and feat chains, and engage in adventuring as a means to that end.
June 3 2009, 05:31:13 UTC 2 years ago
Sure... why not? here is my AAR. MASSIVE SPOILERS FOLLOW.
Shelter Me is a game that has three conceptual levels
1. The mundane reality of children in a hospital
2. The psychological constructions the children have created to deal with traumatic experiences
3. The overtly supernatural things at work external to any of the characters
The game mechanic works on two of these levels: you have a physical capability rating, and effectively an imagination capability. Failure erodes these, success generates trust dice that can be used by the group as a whole to accomplish more things later.
So the majority of the adventure is the children simply existing in the first two spaces. The most powerful scenes for me were the children confronting each other over differences in perception fuelled by their psychological problems.
About mid-way through, they begin to encounter a malevolent ghost, who eventually subsumes the characters into a magical fabrication of a historical scenario - the children re-experience a past event. Eventually, they "escape" that historical re-enactment and individually emerge into a re-enactment of the events which left their minds traumatized.
They then re-face the events, and if they successfully overcome those original obstacles they emerge into reality again whole in mind.
In terms of a plot movement, the game very much starts out as character-exploration informed and constrained by the psychological problems. Then it shifts into a more traditional boarding-house type adventure with ghosts and a troubled past. Then it handbrake-turns back into focusing on the result all this has on the character.
But there is nothing much in causal or thematic terms to relate the three levels. Nothing much that happens in the real world affects the child's self-awareness or self-perception. Nothing much that informs the child's belief (their second dice pool) corresponds to the events portrayed in the history. And there is a real disconnect between any of that and the "resolution" that allows the child to move on from its problems.
And the reason is because of that divided focus: trying to have the character change by changing the world around them, i.e. overcoming their psychological problem by overcoming the external threat of the ghost (in essence.) It kinda sounds like it should all work... but it doesn't really.
My summary at the time was that 2.5 hours of the experience is this gripping psychological drama (the domestic), and the final 0.5 hours is this weird tacked-on ghost story that doesn't really mesh (the adventure). If Marcus dropped the adventure altogether and found some mundane way of signalling the end of the adventure, I think it could be really great.
And having said all that, my unequivocal recommendation to you personally Morgue (and to Ivan if he's reading) is to play the game, it's predecessor and successor... I expect you will find them deeply interesting to play.
June 2 2009, 11:59:16 UTC 2 years ago
We made this mistake in Jamie's Nobilis game, I think: we were fundamentally mortals and accidentally nobles, and hence felt adrift. We repeated it in our first game or Ars Magica: the characters were too sane and normal; they weren't really driven by anything. So this time around, we deliberately designed nutbars (the fact that the new edition explicitly linked flaws (which are necessary to get virtues which are necessary to build an interesting character) to stories made it a lot easier).
More generally, I don't think he distinction between "domestic" and "adventure" is as useful as the more general idea that character preceedes story, and the stories must be matched to the interests and abilities of the characters. They have to have no only a reason to care, but also the ability to realistically do something about it. Which is where epic plots tend to break down for me: unless the characters are also larger than life, the natural thing to do is say "that's terrible, but I can't do anything about it" and hide in a hole. They only work if you are, literally, the heroes - the only ones in the entire world.
I have similar problems with "characters altering the world" vs "world altering the characters" - mainly because both can (and should) happen in the same stories, and because the latter seems awfully passive (not to mention, if done explicitly, intruding on space which is in most games considered to be the domain of the players rather than the GM). I see it more as a question of where the story comes from: was it initiated by the GM or the characters? This covers similar ground - "stuff which happens to us" vs "stuff we are going out and doing ourselves" - but its more about proactive vs reactive stories and internal vs external plot drivers.
The problem is that in order to generate proactive stories, you need both a rich setting and enough time for people to get a feeling for it and what their characters want. If you mostly play short games, its not likely to happen.
June 3 2009, 05:43:48 UTC 2 years ago
Is it a mistake, or do you simply need to recognise the reality of what's been selected and write compelling stories in the real game arena?
Jarrat originally made the observation that my group hadn't designed "adventuring" mages... but only now can I see glimmerings of how I should have responded.
More generally, I don't think he distinction between "domestic" and "adventure" is as useful as the more general idea that character preceedes story
In other words... you don't buy my argument at all. :/ Oh well.
I think that this "character v. story" concept that you're describing has been the single most destructive misapprehension I've laboured under as a GM these past couple of years.
Character does not precede story, it proceeds from story. A story about the life of the character (i.e. a tale focused on their inner life, and their existence as a person) will produce one kind of character, a story about the world of the character (i.e. a tale of adventure and derring do) will produce a different kind.
Stories exist as the primary entity; a character without a story is just a bunch of people sitting around inhabiting space.
and the stories must be matched to the interests and abilities of the characters.
Separate concept here. Of course the character must be match the story and of course there's a feed-back between the two.
Looking at a familiar example: Alectus Hunt. You imbued him with a built-in story motivation. Find demonds, kill them. Jarrat has obliged by writing stories where Alectus can do this. Alectus isn't in the same kinds of stories as Parity. Where is Alectus' awkward first date with another member of the Collegium? Nowhere: because that's not the right story and character combination.
If you mostly play short games, its not likely to happen.
I disagree. I've had some extremely good experiences with even single-session games that revealed more of a character's inner workings to me than multi-year campaigns. It takes people more committed, more engaged, more willing to put things out there and it takes a group willing and able to pick those things up and run with them.
The worst groups I've had are ones where the players can't riff off each others' characters and foibles - where they've needed to "settle in" or spend ages frigging around finding themselves. The best groups have had players that rapidly bring a story to life, and where the whole group can leap into the story.
I really don't think it's a matter of more or less time, but of more or less empathy and sensitivity to the actions taken by others in the group.
June 3 2009, 06:53:36 UTC 2 years ago
Is it a mistake, or do you simply need to recognise the reality of what's been selected and write compelling stories in the real game arena?
In this case, I think it was very definitely a mistake, because we just weren't in the right headspace for the game (In our first Ars Magica saga - Claxby Pluckacre - none of us really knew what we were doing, so its more understandable).
It stresses the importance of GMs and players being on the same page, and of helping one another to find stories and characters that fit and will be fun to play.
Character does not precede story, it proceeds from story. A story about the life of the character (i.e. a tale focused on their inner life, and their existence as a person) will produce one kind of character, a story about the world of the character (i.e. a tale of adventure and derring do) will produce a different kind.
Sure. But that wasn't what I was aiming at. I was more thinking that regardless of whether you focus on their inner or outer lives, a story about a bunch of student mooks discovering evidence of a all-powerful world-spanning conspiracy will go nowhere very fast. But I think we agree on that, and the desirability of picking stories that match your characters, or characters that match your stories, whichever end you want to approach it from.
I've had some extremely good experiences with even single-session games that revealed more of a character's inner workings to me than multi-year campaigns.
Um, I was talking about story proactivity, not whether a character has an inner life. The characters going out and making their own stories. Which in turn requires the players to know enough about the setting to know what levers exist and how to pull them to alter the world. You can frontload that information, but IME its better if it develops organicly in play.
I guess the final thing I'd say here is that a character is something a player has. A story is something a group has. Roleplaying is a group activity.
Yes, depends, and sure. I'd simply point out that a story focusing primarily on the inner life of a particular character can be said to be something that character has. The rest of the group are in a sense supporting cast, with much less of a stake or a claim of "ownership". But that's a long way from your original point,I think.
Anonymous
June 3 2009, 09:08:39 UTC 2 years ago
What's never been quite as clear as the need, is the method. I've tried everything I can think of to get people onto some kind of similar page, and my conclusion is that unless it happens sort of naturally/organically... it's not going to. Which really creates a headache for me every time I sit down to run anything.
But I think we agree on that, and the desirability of picking stories that match your characters, or characters that match your stories, whichever end you want to approach it from.
What I've found, pretty consistently, is that where I've started tabula rasa, looking for players/characters to generate stories, the games haven't worked. Where I've arrived at the character generation session with A Plan (tm), even if I've chucked the plan entirely, the game has gone a lot better on all fronts.
Similarly, when I've just turned up with a character... crud. Basically the problem with Dauphin in some ways. Anyway; where I've arrived with a story agenda, it's gone better.
Maybe this isn't a general rule, but at the risk of sounding like Alexander Pope, story should provide an initial guide and kerb to character.
Um, I was talking about story proactivity, not whether a character has an inner life.
Sorry, my bad.
But that's a long way from your original point,I think.
I encourage topic drift. I've had so many more interesting off-topic than on-topic discussions, that it's practically a rule in my mind that people should respond on points of interest, whether it's germaine to the matter at hand or utterly irrelevant.
June 3 2009, 05:44:53 UTC 2 years ago